Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

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Darth Bangkok
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Darth Bangkok » December 16th, 2017, 3:04 pm

I really despise Poe Dameron. He should have died in the crash on Jakku.

Rose - useless and annoying. So she wanted to save Finn from killing himself by crashing into his ship and killing both of them? Great idea.

the splicer, DJ i think his name was, even more annoying. Was given too much prominence in the movie. The fact that he was a splicer and was there is not a problem, but he character and dialogue was terrible.

Phasma should have been dead in the trash compactor. Or if not, and Han and Finn just locked her in there and didn't commit murder (although even if that happened she should have been dead when Starkiller Base exploded - what happened? Did they check the trash compactors before they evacuated in an emergency?) - why make her survive just to do nothing again and have another lame death in a really lame scene? (space metal burning everywhere and BB8 doing more stupid things without any hands).

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toVor
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by toVor » December 16th, 2017, 3:43 pm

DblDwn wrote:
December 15th, 2017, 7:03 pm
Luke told Rey that Ben had killed all the students except for five that he took with him. I assume that is the Knights of Ren, who should take on a larger role in Episode IX, I hope.

Luke was somewhat underused in this, but he was already established from the OT. Snoke and Phasma were both new characters who were both overmarketed and overhyped, and both have now been killed without any substance to what made them who they were to begin with.
I don't remember that dialogue. I'll listen for it when I see it again.

From a certain point of view, Luke should have been fully used in TFA and then died at the end. The first 2 trilogies both had, as we all know, a Jedi master mentor die in the first act of the trilogy. But dammit, after all these years I wanted to see more of Luke Skywalker, much much more.

As much as I am disappointed that he died at the end of this film, he did die like Yoda and Obi-Wan did so my expectation is that he will come back in spirit form in the final film and have further interaction with both Rey and Kylo. As much as I felt cheated at his minute screen time and lack of dialogue in TFA, and by his anger and reluctance in TLJ, I will feel cheated even more if this does not happen in the final episode.


Unrelated to the above, one of the biggest laughs in the movie was when Kylo opened holy hell fire on him and he stepped out of the flames and smoke and casually brushed some dust off of his shoulder. Good to see that despite all of that anger, remorse, and resentment, ol' Lukie has a sense of humor amid it all.
"Your focus determines your reality." --Qui-Gon Jinn
"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." --John Lennon
"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." --Carl Sagan

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toVor
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by toVor » December 16th, 2017, 3:46 pm

Javen wrote:
December 16th, 2017, 11:29 am
toVor wrote:
December 15th, 2017, 11:39 pm
Survey:
The truth about Rey's parents...
The truth spoken by Kylo, or a lie to confuse and/or sway her?
It's the truth and the cave scene even furthers that truth. Her being a nobody is more profound than her being a Skywalker, Solo, Kenobie, Emperor's clone and other crazy theories.

Kylo is being truthful just like Maz in TFA. She already knows the truth. She has an identity and that doesn't lie with her being from great bloodline. I'm glad this movie was different. The same old, same old what not have sufficed. She is just as important as anyone.
Well said, and convincing your views are. I accept that answer.
"Your focus determines your reality." --Qui-Gon Jinn
"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." --John Lennon
"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." --Carl Sagan

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Javen
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Javen » December 16th, 2017, 5:19 pm

Darth Bangkok wrote:
December 16th, 2017, 3:04 pm
I really despise Poe Dameron. He should have died in the crash on Jakku.

Rose - useless and annoying. So she wanted to save Finn from killing himself by crashing into his ship and killing both of them? Great idea.

the splicer, DJ i think his name was, even more annoying. Was given too much prominence in the movie. The fact that he was a splicer and was there is not a problem, but he character and dialogue was terrible.

Phasma should have been dead in the trash compactor. Or if not, and Han and Finn just locked her in there and didn't commit murder (although even if that happened she should have been dead when Starkiller Base exploded - what happened? Did they check the trash compactors before they evacuated in an emergency?) - why make her survive just to do nothing again and have another lame death in a really lame scene? (space metal burning everywhere and BB8 doing more stupid things without any hands).
You have your opinion but this is just sour apples. I mean Poe's arc was great, Rose was really good. The movies was awesome.

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borgmatrix
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » December 16th, 2017, 6:09 pm

Didn't much care for the movie. Saw it Thursday and Friday night. Here are some thoughts:

I don't mind humor in these movies, and quite enjoyed much of the humor in TFA. But the first scenes with Hux turned him into too much of a joke, which then made it hard as the movie progressed to feel much suspense from his pursuit of the Resistance fleet. In TFA, I liked the brief bits we got showing the tension between him and Ren, and the sense of potential rivalry between the two for Snoke's approval as something to build on. But then, right off the bat in TLJ, we have him "tooled" and called pasty, made to look foolish in his interaction with Poe and then embarrassed by Snoke in front of his bridge crew. And this is the guy leading the pursuit of the Resistance fleet.

Meanwhile, the Resistance fleet seemed to be made up of a bunch of clowns who had no idea how to work together. Poe was the lone fighter going up against the ship in the opening battle, Leia ordered him to pull back, and he disobeyed. Okay. But then we have all the bomber ships arriving to take that ship out. So who's operation/command was this? If it's Leia, are we to believe its not only Poe but all the other bomber crews that are also disobeying her? If its Poe's command, he had this whole thing mapped out without telling Leia? We had these communication issues continuing under the Vice Admiral. Why the hell is she keeping the plan a secret? We end up with that unnecessary subplot of Finn and Rose heading out to that casino which jeopardized the Vice Admiral's plan and led to numerous Resistance ships being destroyed and a lot of loss of life.

That whole thread of the last remaining Resistance ships on the run from pursuing enemy forces seemed pulled from BSG, yet with none of the suspense of the episode 33, which did more with less time.

With the Luke/Rey plotline, I thought they got off to a shaky start. At the end of TFA, they let the camera however around Luke and Rey with outstretched saber. There was a sense of weight there, a sadness that hung in the air, the sense of being on the verge of something big. But they return to that in TLJ with none of that spacing, a much edited down version that then went into joke territory with Luke tossing the saber. I also found it laughable when Luke mentions coming to this "unfindable" island. Right. When there was a map pointing right to him.

The movie showed first signs of life with the Ren/Rey Force connection, which I found fascinating and well acted by both actors. And then with Luke's first lesson for Rey when he had her sit cross-legged on that rock...great scene. With Rey/Ren, that opened up a lot of interesting questions (What is it that connects these two? Is the Force drawing them together? To what end? Can they bring something new that the Jedi and Sith Orders couldn't?). But much of that evaporated when we found out it was just manufactured by Snoke to manipulate them. And it was more disappointing when she didn't join him, a move that would have been unique and built on the ideas the movie opened up about the Force not belonging to the Jedi and Sith and the hints of letting the Jedi (and Sith) die in favor of something new. Also disappointing that Ren's offer to her had to be of the "let's rule" variety rather than something more subtle and nuanced. I will give them props for showing that Rey and Ren still had a connection post-Snoke.

Speaking of Snoke, what a waste. We learned literally nothing about this guy. Who or what was he? Where did he come from? Was there any connection between him and Sidious or Vader? What did he want other than the Jedi gone? In TLJ, when Ren brings him Rey, he spoke of Kylo regaining his favor for it. But then seconds later he revealed he was the one who created the Force connection between the two and used it to manipulate both, knowing Kylo was conflicted and that Rey wouldn't be able to resist trying to turn him due to that inner conflict. So Kylo hadn't regained favor? Or had regained favor for being an easily manipulated tool? And since Kylo's inner conflict is so obvious to Snoke, why his strong conviction that Kylo could never turn on him or would do exactly what he wanted him to? Maybe in a nod to the Emperor's weak, heavyhanded attempted to turn Luke in ROTJ, Snoke continued to talk in a way that would only further anger Ren and create hate toward Snoke (and again, on top of the conflict/weakness Snoke had already noted aloud about Kylo).

So Snoke knew Kylo was conflicted. Berated him as a child in a mask playing at being Vader earlier in the movie. Openly talks about Kylo's conflict in front of Rey and about how he used that conflict to manipulate both. And then he expects Kylo couldn't possibly turn on him? Snoke is powerful enough to Force connect the two, to override Rey Force pulling her saber and take it back, but he can't sense what Kylo is going to do? And this as he's sitting there focused on Ren and giving us a play-by-play of how's he about to kill Rey...which turns out completely wrong as he's oblivious to the saber at this side being used against him. Satisfying to see this idiot cut in half, but made no sense. Again, they seemed to be riffing on Sidious in ROTJ being so focused on torturing Luke with Force lightning that he didn't sense Vader moving on him. But it doesn't fit the scene here where Snoke is focused on Kylo and yet still completely misses what he's doing.

I had a major problem with Luke in this movie, too. Really, we were back in ESB territory for Luke. He was once again "young Skywalker," hard-headed and not seeing what was in front of him, needing his wise Master Yoda to pop in and show him the way. After all the past emphasis on "do or do not, there is no try", here Luke's post-ROTJ history was one feeble try to continue the Jedi and then giving up at first failure. That's not the Luke we saw in ROTJ. Great to see Yoda back and as he looked in ESB, but to use him to pop in and point out to Luke the obvious (that failures can be our greatest catapults to greatness and learning) was weak. It would have been great for Luke's history post-ROTJ to involve both failure (Kylo Ren), but also success (other successfully trained Masters out there in the galaxy). And for Luke to be a Master that brought lessons and wisdom to bear in the final Act of TLJ that he'd built himself off of his own years of experience since the OT...rather than being handed it by Yoda at the end. As great as it was to see Luke's actions when he arrived to help out the Resistance, it wasn't satisfying given that we went from one extreme with what we'd seen from Luke for most of the movie to another extreme simply from Yoda showing up for a few minutes.

I was also very bothered by Luke telling Leia that he could not turn Kylo back. Really? Everyone seemed able to sense Kylo's inner conflict. Kylo himself. Rey. Snoke. But Luke, the man who sensed the good in Vader and went to turn him back, who was willing to die on the Death Star to remain with the Light ("You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."), he couldn't and wouldn't try to turn his former pupil and his nephew back? The movie for the first half to two thirds seemed to want to be all about shades of gray, nuance, and looking at the SW universe (whether with regard to the Force or the different sides of war) in a more complex way...all of sudden it was back to a simple, black/white view of things at the end.

After all the talk/focus on the Jedi not owning the Force, the mistakes of the past handed down by former masters to their apprentices, the idea that something new could rise that was different than the orders of the past...it was right back to same old with Luke declaring he's not the last jedi and Rey poised to continue the Jedi. That's where we were at the end of ROTJ with Luke heralding the return of the Jedi. So we've taken two movies now in this new trilogy to rehash much of the previous trilogy and end up right where we already were. On that note, Luke was already a symbol at the end of ROTJ, as well. But we're given a pretty sad post-ROTJ legacy for him that then in minutes of screen time re-established him as a symbol.

So much of what we saw in TLJ felt like smoke and mirrors (maybe I should say Snoke and mirrors :laugh: ), hinting at different, deeper ideas, but superficially and taking us right back to where we already were...Kylo on the Dark Side, Rey on the Light Side.

I've found questions fans have asked since TFA, such as speculation on Rey's parentage, Snoke's identity/background, significance of the first Jedi Temple, the nature of the Force, whether Rey and Ren might take alternate paths, and other stimulating discussion online to be so much more engaging the much that we got in the actual movie.


There were definitely things I liked: seeing different ships on both sides, different use of the Force (Rey/Ren in communication, Luke's Force projection at the end), the Rey/Ren team-up battle against Snoke's guards. But its been really disappointing to see so much pulled from the OT, rehashed, and without much sense over TFA and TLJ of any kind of coherent, overall vision. If they were vastly improving on what we'd seen in the OT, that'd be one thing. But so often it seems to be pulling scenes/lines/situations from the old movies, putting them in a blender, and then pouring them over these two movies without characterization or development that makes sense.


Oh, and on Rey's parentage...no problem with them subverting expectations, but after failing to get any meaningful info/backstory about Snoke, the Knights of Ren, the first Jedi Temple, I'd really hoped at least something of interest would be revealed about her parents. I will say there's a clear opening for Abrams to reveal something different in the next movie. After all, I don't know that Kylo Ren is the best source for truth. Throw in Snoke's hand in manipulating them with their Force connection and both Rey and Ren seeing things wrong as to what the other would do...there's plenty to cloud whether we actually know the truth about her.

One other thought that comes to mind: Luke seemed pretty bitter in talking about a Jedi being the one who trained Vader. Are we to take that as a sign of disdain/resentment toward Obi-wan?

As to my experiences outside the movie itself: Got a cool stormtrooper helmet popcorn bin on Thursday. On Friday, went to a SW party at a bar across from the theater and got a couple cool mini-posters, a neat lanyard, and bought some art prints of some of my favorite SW characters, including Darth Revan, Kylo Ren, Darth Vader, and Darth Nihilus.
Last edited by borgmatrix on December 17th, 2017, 4:17 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Darth Bangkok
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Darth Bangkok » December 16th, 2017, 6:22 pm

Javen wrote:
December 16th, 2017, 5:19 pm


You have your opinion but this is just sour apples. I mean Poe's arc was great, Rose was really good. The movies was awesome.
Poe's arc is great? He's just a pilot who gets to be on the bridge and demand to be included in everything. Without him, there would be more rebels left than can fit in the Millenium Falcon.

Speaking of the bridge, they let Admiral Akbar die like a punk, what disrespect. Laura Dern's character was completely unnecessary (compounding the mistake with the incredibly bad acting). It should have been Akbar to go down with the ship, even in that most stupid of ways by jumping to hyperspace into another ship. Where did those star trails come from if the ships collided at hyperspace speed anyway.

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Master Magnus
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Magnus » December 17th, 2017, 7:44 am

Well, I managed to stay away from spoilers... I'm now off to Stockholm to finally watch The Last Jedi...

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Javen » December 17th, 2017, 9:13 am

Darth Bangkok wrote:
December 16th, 2017, 6:22 pm
Javen wrote:
December 16th, 2017, 5:19 pm


You have your opinion but this is just sour apples. I mean Poe's arc was great, Rose was really good. The movies was awesome.
Poe's arc is great? He's just a pilot who gets to be on the bridge and demand to be included in everything. Without him, there would be more rebels left than can fit in the Millenium Falcon.

Speaking of the bridge, they let Admiral Akbar die like a punk, what disrespect. Laura Dern's character was completely unnecessary (compounding the mistake with the incredibly bad acting). It should have been Akbar to go down with the ship, even in that most stupid of ways by jumping to hyperspace into another ship. Where did those star trails come from if the ships collided at hyperspace speed anyway.
People die, war is hell. Laura Dern was just fine. What she did was not even what I thought she would do. Besides her role was meant to be small just like DJ. Although I'm not sure if he was dead or alive. I didn't like him, nor teh Canto Bight scenes. Other than that. This movie was exactly what was needed, or we'd have the same old stuff. Thankfully it was different or it would have gone stagnant in my mind.

Really you're gonna nitpick hyperspace? I can't even take your post seriously.

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Master Magnus
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Magnus » December 17th, 2017, 3:12 pm

Just came home from Stockholm. I need some time to process it, but it was much better than The Force Awakens. Does that mean that it was good? Unfortunately no. Upon my first viewing I have to say that there are things to like, quite a few things not to like a few things that the filmmakers had forgotten about since TFA as there's a serious continuity error (the Knights of Ren seems to have been completely forgotten about).

And like Darth Bangkok, I found quite a few things to nitpick about that were annoying: Bombs don't behave that way in space (but there's no sound in space either of course... :lol: ), the fighters are overpowered (why bother with capital ships), why didn't Hux order more ships in to outflank the rebel "fleet" as they were travelling on a straight course? Some of the "humor" was cringe-worthy and too much in your face. "General Hugs"? Was that supposed to be funny? Finn mopped the floor on Snoke's ship and knew about the tracking device? And how the heck did DJ (though he's not named in the movie) know about the evacuation plan when not even Finn and Rose knew about it? Maz was a complete and utter waste. And Snoke... We can't pretend the OT never happened, so... The film is also too minimalistic to the point of annoyance (also, if no-one cares about the Resistance... Sorry, we're back to Rebels again, why the heck should we?)

I never thought I would say this, but Mark Hamill was excellent! John Williams hasn't written such an excellent score in many years! Daisy Ridley was good and Carrie Fisher shone in her last performance. It was good seeing an old friend (who looked a little off, but still). The Porgs were adorable! Loved that first scene with Chewie and the Porgs. As far as the other actors go, I don't care at all for Adam Driver. Not to speak ill of Boyega who is a good actor, but his character is one of the worst major characters in Star Wars.

In short, I'd say that it's a movie based on contrivances and conveniences.

With Jar J... Sorry, J J Abrams directing IX, I'm not holding out much hope.

My (tentative) updated list:
1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. Revenge of the Sith
3. Rogue One
4. Attack of the Clones
5. A New Hope
6. Return of the Jedi
7. The Phantom Menace/The Last Jedi
9. The Force Awakens

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Darth Fool » December 17th, 2017, 3:40 pm

I did wonder about DJ knowing about the plan somehow, but thought maybe I'd missed something.
Master Magnus wrote:
December 17th, 2017, 3:12 pm
(the Knights of Ren seems to have been completely forgotten about).
I thought it was strange they didn't feature but it was mentioned that Ben took some of the students with him before slaughtering the rest so I don't think they've been forgotten about.

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Master Shrive
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Shrive » December 17th, 2017, 6:17 pm

I'll post my quick thoughts below. I wasn't overly looking forward to this as I felt TFA didn't live up to expectations. I enjoyed TLJ a lot more than VII - but I've always said I'll wait to judge the ST until all the movies are released.

I quite liked it; but once again there seemed to be a lot of mirroring. The Rebels were in trouble once again and they were doomed and going to run out of time but the day is saved etc. etc.

We didn't get the two big questions answered: who are Rey's parents and who is Snoke? I still hope we get some resolution there. Or do people believe the line we were given about Rey's parents? Is she really just some random in the universe who was strong with the Force and was "awakened" last episode? I'm not sure I'm sold on that.

I do wonder if Snoke is going to be a bit like Dooku - a random bad guy who effectively came out of nowhere at the start of Episode II. That said, that wouldn't really be any different to the Emperor or Yoda just appearing in Episode V. So Star Wars has done that in the past where big characters have just come and gone. But we still don't know if Snoke is related to the Sith or not; and if he's not then we don't have the classic Jedi vs Sith that Star Wars is known for. But if he is, then that raises more questions about how he connected in.

I thought Luke was used brilliantly. I thoroughly enjoyed his scenes and the further back story for Kylo. However, I do feel that the big three have been under utilised in the PT. One scene with them all together would have been nice (which I'd always thought even after the last movie and think it even more now).

Humour was used well in my opinion, with some good laugh out loud moments. Poor Chewie and his food.

I'll be interested to see how they handle Leia in the next movie. For a while there I thought the purple haired chick was maybe going to become the leader in IX, but obviously that went out the window. Speaking of out the window, I thought maybe that was how they might have killed Leia off, but I'm certainly glad they didn't. I suspect we'll see a natural death for her near the start of the next movie, although Leia sacrificing herself instead of old purple hair probably would have been ideal in hindsight :(

I'm happy to agree that Phasma was wasted - I actually expected her to throw her helmet off when that was damaged and we'd get another prolonged fight that would give the actress some screen time at least - but nope, down she fell.

We'll be expecting to see Del Toro's character (DJ?) in the next episode? I hadn't heard about him being Ezra. Could be interesting there.

Overall, I was quite happy with the experience and now I'm certainly looking forward to the next one.


A couple of comments in response to what some others have mentioned:

I certainly hope we don't need to read the books to get resolution for characters like Snoke. That reminds me of when ROTS came out and we got no information about Sifo Dyas nor how the clones came into existence. It just was and that was that. You needed to read one of the novels to find out more. Which, don't get me wrong, I did the reading and enjoy the books - but I believe if a plot point is introduced to the movies then it should be resolved in the movies as well, not in the EU.

How long did it take for people to realise something wasn't right with Luke during the big fight? I noticed his beard wasn't right (it was his younger version's beard), but I didn't twigg. Instead, I just thought someone in the costume department had stuffed up, lol. Other friends I saw it with picked up on other things though - such as no footprints in the salt, or the blue lightsaber. There was enough little clues and I look forward to rewatching that scene again.

I too expect we'll see a bit of Luke in the last. I imagine that was the plan all along, but in particular because Leia won't be having a role.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » December 17th, 2017, 6:31 pm

Master Magnus wrote:
December 17th, 2017, 3:12 pm
Does that mean that it was good? Unfortunately no. Upon my first viewing I have to say that there are things to like, quite a few things not to like a few things that the filmmakers had forgotten about since TFA as there's a serious continuity error (the Knights of Ren seems to have been completely forgotten about).
Not a continuity error exactly, since they're not obligated to explain it. But, it is annoying to have things like this brought up with no further explanation. Like you said, too minimalistic.
I never thought I would say this, but Mark Hamill was excellent!
Really? I thought he did quite well in the OT in portraying Luke from from inexperienced farmboy in ANH to confident Jedi in ROTJ. I thought he was good in TLJ, but wasn't blown away and thought the script characterization of Luke really let him down.
As far as the other actors go, I don't care at all for Adam Driver. Not to speak ill of Boyega who is a good actor, but his character is one of the worst major characters in Star Wars.
I might call Driver the brightest spot of this trilogy thus far, and he's been given a solid character to portray. I've also enjoyed his stances in battle. Much that's around him is a mess, but with Snoke dead and Ren now Supreme Leader, and with the Force-connection to Rey, I'm really looking forward to his scenes in the next movie.

Finn isn't the best developed character, but he's likable on screen and I've generally enjoyed his scenes. Just wish he'd been featured in a much better subplot in TLJ.
With Jar J... Sorry, J J Abrams directing IX, I'm not holding out much hope.
I'm not either. Do we know who's writing IX? But, yeah, I'm expecting a safe conclusion and wouldn't be surprised if we see more course corrections/abandoning of ideas.
My (tentative) updated list:
1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. Revenge of the Sith
3. Rogue One
4. Attack of the Clones
5. A New Hope
6. Return of the Jedi
7. The Phantom Menace/The Last Jedi
9. The Force Awakens
Damn. Didn't realize how close our tastes and rankings would be.

Mine:

1. Revenge of the Sith
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. Rogue One
4. Attack of the Clones
5. A New Hope
6. Return of the Jedi
7. The Phantom Menace
8. The Force Awakens
9. The Last Jedi

I put TFA ahead of TLJ because it at least entertained me more consistently and had more spark/energy/life. And while I didn't care for Han apart from Leia and back to ANH smuggler and owing money, he was at least utilized better than Luke and was right in the midst of the action. Same for Finn. Hux wasn't yet reduced to complete joke status. Shorter movie, which was good given the missteps in these two films. I thought the humor worked a lot better, especially with BB8 in the first half. Poe also was used better, or at least less badly than he was in TLJ. And there was hope for learning more about Snoke, Knights of Ren, and other things as it was the first movie. No such excuse for TLJ.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Kapit » December 17th, 2017, 10:51 pm

Master Magnus wrote:
December 17th, 2017, 3:12 pm
Upon my first viewing I have to say that there are things to like, quite a few things not to like a few things that the filmmakers had forgotten about since TFA as there's a serious continuity error (the Knights of Ren seems to have been completely forgotten about).
Snoke calls Kylo "Master of the Knights of Ren" again.
Bombs don't behave that way in space (but there's no sound in space either of course... :lol: ), the fighters are overpowered (why bother with capital ships), why didn't Hux order more ships in to outflank the rebel "fleet" as they were travelling on a straight course?
1. Either they're dropping due to bomber internal gravity or maybe magnetic tracks to propel them "down"?

2. Fighter strength has always been OP in the movies. How many Death Star turrets or Star Destroyer shield generators have been destroyed by a single fighter? A lot.

3. Dialogue from Hux states their ships can't catch the Resistance ships, hence the shelling. I'd assume if they have any other ships they're too far away to reach them in time?
And how the heck did DJ (though he's not named in the movie) know about the evacuation plan when not even Finn and Rose knew about it?
Poe tells them over com the last time he talks to them. Camera holds on DJ making a face as he hears it.

--------------------------------------------


I just got back from my second viewing and I absolutely adore this movie. I initially didn't much care for the Canto Bight sequence but the second time around it didn't bother me at all. Silly? Sure. But we live in a world where an eeopie farts in Jar Jar's face so it's all a matter of perspective.

I don't fully understand Finn's lack of reaction to Rose's kiss. I suppose Boyega was going for shock/surprise but it didn't read that way to me.

I like Poe getting taken down multiple pegs throughout the movie and his subsequent growth from it. Hubris and gumption can only take one so far and he had to learn that the very hard way. Classic hero's journey stuff.

I am disappointed in Phasma's abrupt demise. I wish we had more of her character but I feel Johnson recognized there was no room in this movie (and probably not the next one either) to make that work. Oh well, she got a book and a comic instead.

Now...Snoke and Rey's parents. The two biggest talking points from TFA! Who is Snoke? Is Rey a Kenobi? On and on it went, to a point of ridiculousness. I could not be happier with what Johnson chose to do here. He's very bluntly telling the audience that it really doesn't matter whatsoever...but it also does. Rey being a "nobody from nowhere" means the galaxy is not just influenced by the Skywalker family. It's telling us that ANYBODY could be the hero of the story, which I do believe is something fans have been clamoring about since the prequels: Why are the Skywalker's the only ones who can save the galaxy? Well shoot, now the last remaining Skywalker is evil and somebody else has to step up for a change! This dovetails nicely into the end of the movie wherein another "nobody from nowhere" displays Force abilities - just affirmation of a classic Star Wars trope: hope can come from the unlikeliest of places.

Now Snoke, he's just an evil dude who wields dark side powers and has a talent for manipulation. What more do you really need from him? How is that any different from what we got of the Emperor in ESB and ROTJ? They're bad guys to be defeated and Snoke just happened to be defeated in the middle act so that Kylo can take on the mantle of Big Bad. He's fulfilling not only an Obi-Wan style role for Kylo, but he's also part of Kylo's "Villains Journey", so to speak. Snoke was the embodiment of the "Atonement with the father" stage -- essentially the midpoint in Kylo's journey. Snoke was a McGuffin - a hurdle to overcome in order for Kylo to undergo his own transformation into the Big Bad. This again goes back to him ultimately being meaningless to the greater story - we aren't given anymore information because that information is irrelevant and quite simply a waste of time.

Snoke is nothing, Rey's parents are nothing, and Johnson subverted the audiences preconceived notions about both. It's a very meta choice and I for one appreciate the hell out of it.

I've rambled on too long, haha. Suffice to say I thought it was great and in my personal list I'd say it's probably 3rd after ANH and ESB.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Blizzard » December 18th, 2017, 12:19 am

I told my boyfriend I had given up on the movie until the porg hit the glass and I actually laughed. But the boyfriend was ruining it for me throughout when he kept grabbing my hand making me miss parts, and pushing himself up in the recliner and crushing my fat ass each time.

I KNEW the fans were going to hate it, because there were too many jokes that were inappropriate to the moment. Too many Jar Jar moments. Chrome dome? Really?

Mark Hamill was right, Luke would have never done those things and become a hermit and given up. Jedi never give up. They made him into a whiny old man.

Good parts: Porgs! Muppet Yoda! Twin suns! Luke's foot not making a red mark in the salt! And Leia using the Force!

My son ruined Attack of the Clones for me (dropping coins, spilling pop, standing up randomly in the theater) and I STILL can't sit through that movie. I should see this one again, but I don't know if I can. I'll just start looking forward to Han Solo.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Magnus » December 18th, 2017, 1:03 am

borgmatrix wrote:
December 17th, 2017, 6:31 pm
Master Magnus wrote:
December 17th, 2017, 3:12 pm
Does that mean that it was good? Unfortunately no. Upon my first viewing I have to say that there are things to like, quite a few things not to like a few things that the filmmakers had forgotten about since TFA as there's a serious continuity error (the Knights of Ren seems to have been completely forgotten about).
Not a continuity error exactly, since they're not obligated to explain it.
I don't agree since what was ultimately told by Luke on what transpired during the temple incident was completely at odds with what was shown in TFA (even considering that Luke may had drawn some conclusions as he didn't witness the events himself).

It's as if Johnson opened Abrams mystery box, didn't like what was inside and retconned it.
I never thought I would say this, but Mark Hamill was excellent!
Really? I thought he did quite well in the OT in portraying Luke from from inexperienced farmboy in ANH to confident Jedi in ROTJ.
In Star Wars you could tell that he was an inexperienced actor as he 'jumped' too much when he delivered his lines. He was better in TESB (and was really good acting against the Yoda puppet) and ROTJ though. However, I guess I've always been more of a Han Solo fan.
borgmatrix wrote:I thought he was good in TLJ, but wasn't blown away and thought the script characterization of Luke really let him down.
Indeed. That I liked Hamill's performance doesn't mean that I liked what was done to Luke's character. As I wrote elsewhere, it's as if nothing that happened in the OT mattered at all. The character arcs and growth of both Han Solo and Luke Skywalker in the OT were reset and ruined in TFA and TLJ respectively. Luke Skywalker was handled far worse than Han though and was reduced to a grumpy old man.
With Jar J... Sorry, J J Abrams directing IX, I'm not holding out much hope.
I'm not either. Do we know who's writing IX? But, yeah, I'm expecting a safe conclusion and wouldn't be surprised if we see more course corrections/abandoning of ideas.
Abrams and Chris Terrio, the writer of Argo and Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. According to Iger, Abrams pitched the story for IX the day before yesterday.
My (tentative) updated list:
1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. Revenge of the Sith
3. Rogue One
4. Attack of the Clones
5. A New Hope
6. Return of the Jedi
7. The Phantom Menace/The Last Jedi
9. The Force Awakens
Damn. Didn't realize how close our tastes and rankings would be.

Mine:

1. Revenge of the Sith
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. Rogue One
4. Attack of the Clones
5. A New Hope
6. Return of the Jedi
7. The Phantom Menace
8. The Force Awakens
9. The Last Jedi
:D I'm a bit torn and ROTS and TESB routinely switch places.
borgmatrix wrote:I put TFA ahead of TLJ because it at least entertained me more consistently and had more spark/energy/life. And while I didn't care for Han apart from Leia and back to ANH smuggler and owing money, he was at least utilized better than Luke and was right in the midst of the action. Same for Finn. Hux wasn't yet reduced to complete joke status. Shorter movie, which was good given the missteps in these two films. I thought the humor worked a lot better, especially with BB8 in the first half. Poe also was used better, or at least less badly than he was in TLJ. And there was hope for learning more about Snoke, Knights of Ren, and other things as it was the first movie. No such excuse for TLJ.
Hux was handled horribly in TLJ. And I agree, there can be no such excuses for TLJ.

The underlying plot, the Resistance or Rebel "fleet" or whatever, fleeing the First Order, was the weakest of any Star Wars movie and didn't make any sense.

Oh, and apart from the costumes, some very fake looking aliens and the spacehorse flight, I actually liked Canto Bight as a setting and I adored Williams music that had a "Copacabana" vibe to it. Williams has written some excellent music since Star Wars but that was the most fun piece by him since the Cantina music.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by DblDwn » December 18th, 2017, 1:41 pm

While rewatching TFA over the weekend something occurred to me. Everything in Rey's vision when she first touched the saber has already happened, except one. Luke has already fought Vader on Bespin, she was already left on Jakku, Ben had already burned the temple, etc. She then later fought Kylo in the snow on Starkiller Base.

But when Ben killed his peers, save for a few who went with him, and burned the temple there is no rain, and no moisture on the ground when Luke is observing with R2. That being the case we have not yet seen Kylo standing over a number of bodies in the rain, alongside what we presume to be the Knights of Ren. Is this a preview into an event to come in Episode IX and, if so, what are the circumstances of the carnage?

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Kapit » December 18th, 2017, 1:48 pm

DblDwn wrote:
December 18th, 2017, 1:41 pm
While rewatching TFA over the weekend something occurred to me. Everything in Rey's vision when she first touched the saber has already happened, except one. Luke has already fought Vader on Bespin, she was already left on Jakku, Ben had already burned the temple, etc. She then later fought Kylo in the snow on Starkiller Base.

But when Ben killed his peers, save for a few who went with him, and burned the temple there is no rain, and no moisture on the ground when Luke is observing with R2. That being the case we have not yet seen Kylo standing over a number of bodies in the rain, alongside what we presume to be the Knights of Ren. Is this a preview into an event to come in Episode IX and, if so, what are the circumstances of the carnage?
Considering he has the helmet on, I doubt it. I doubt Kylo will go back to it in light of Snoke's comments about the helmet, so I'd assume it's just some random slaughter in the past - or a vision of the future that didn't come to pass when she challenged him?
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Javen » December 18th, 2017, 4:45 pm

Uggg if you have to make ESB the golden standard then that is seriously terrible and you're steeped in a culture who expects it and if you don't you get derided for it. One of the most over-hyped movies of all time. I could tear it apart in seconds. ANH is a million times better than that and so is TLJ

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Talcy » December 18th, 2017, 6:34 pm

I've only watched it once. I was stunned into quiet when I walked down the road afterwards, but only in a way I used to be when I was a kid and saw a film that really hit me in a good way - last time that happened was Jurassic Park.

I still don't really know my whole opinion yet. I did spend much of my time watching it thinking "this is the movie The Force Awakens should have been." Some comedy hit wrong, some moments were totally wrong (Luke brushing himseld off after the walker assault) and one moment was shot in a way which has invited mockery (Leia Poppins - although the moment itself was something I figured Force users could do whe I was a kid). Loved seeing Yoda but that puppet was awful. I'm really not a fan of Neil Scanlon's creature work - everything has this samey look to it, like they're all really from the same planet.

Luke and Leia almost wiped me out emotionally (listening to that moment on the score as I type and it's a wallop). Poe and Rey finally meeting was a nice moment (made me realise how much we take for granted in these films). Angry R2 was great. Porgs were good but that quivering lip Porg as Chewie was about to munch one was a shot too much - the guilt inducing stares of the crowd was enough.

ADRIAN EDMONDSON!!! I didn't realise it was him until the Raddus rammed the Supremacy. He was channneling Ken Colley, I swear! His performance fitted perfectly.

I did think Williams phoned in some of the score. Leia Poppins was just an excerpt fromt he concert arrangement of her theme, as was much of Yoda's time. Not a fan of the theme for Rose and Finn; starts too similarly to Anakin's theme. Need to listen more but Kylo's motif is becoming stronger for me. I would have liked to have heard Luke's theme during his confrontation with Kylo. I miss the conecert arrangement end credits nowadays, but I guess the longer credits now mean that Williams has to incoprporate bits of the earlier movie score like other composers do now - less tructured and more frenetic. That's disappointing.

But, man, Peace and Purpose. Whoah.

Will try and see it again this week, work and Christmas shopping permitting. Until then, that's all I got. A more formed opnion from me later.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Kapit » December 18th, 2017, 7:03 pm

Talcy wrote:
December 18th, 2017, 6:34 pm
Porgs were good but that quivering lip Porg as Chewie was about to munch one was a shot too much - the guilt inducing stares of the crowd was enough.
That was the shot that sealed my eternal love for Porgs because it's the exact face my dog makes when he's begging. The giant eyes, the slight tilt to the eyebrow. It was like seeing my doggo on screen and it got me right through the heart.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » December 18th, 2017, 11:03 pm

Kapit wrote:
December 17th, 2017, 10:51 pm
I like Poe getting taken down multiple pegs throughout the movie and his subsequent growth from it. Hubris and gumption can only take one so far and he had to learn that the very hard way. Classic hero's journey stuff.
I didn't get any sense of Poe getting taken down a notch. He was so understanding, and accepting, of the plan when Leia told him at the end, that my learning point was that the Vice Admiral shouldn't have been keeping secrets and should have revealed the plan up front.
Now...Snoke and Rey's parents. The two biggest talking points from TFA! Who is Snoke? Is Rey a Kenobi? On and on it went, to a point of ridiculousness. I could not be happier with what Johnson chose to do here. He's very bluntly telling the audience that it really doesn't matter whatsoever...but it also does. Rey being a "nobody from nowhere" means the galaxy is not just influenced by the Skywalker family. It's telling us that ANYBODY could be the hero of the story, which I do believe is something fans have been clamoring about since the prequels: Why are the Skywalker's the only ones who can save the galaxy? Well shoot, now the last remaining Skywalker is evil and somebody else has to step up for a change! This dovetails nicely into the end of the movie wherein another "nobody from nowhere" displays Force abilities - just affirmation of a classic Star Wars trope: hope can come from the unlikeliest of places.
If it's a trope of classic SW that hope can come from the unlikeliest place, I'd say that's a message long received and didn't necessitate Rey being a "nobody". There was probably more "clamoring" from fans for Rey to be of the Skywalker lineage. I don't have an issue with the reveal that her parents were not anyone we know. No issue with subverting expectations there. But when we also didn't get anything on Snoke. And nothing on the Knights of Ren. And nothing meaningful about the history of the first Jedi Temple...well, nothing starts to get old when it's coming up everywhere.
Now Snoke, he's just an evil dude who wields dark side powers and has a talent for manipulation. What more do you really need from him? How is that any different from what we got of the Emperor in ESB and ROTJ? They're bad guys to be defeated and Snoke just happened to be defeated in the middle act so that Kylo can take on the mantle of Big Bad. He's fulfilling not only an Obi-Wan style role for Kylo, but he's also part of Kylo's "Villains Journey", so to speak. Snoke was the embodiment of the "Atonement with the father" stage -- essentially the midpoint in Kylo's journey. Snoke was a McGuffin - a hurdle to overcome in order for Kylo to undergo his own transformation into the Big Bad. This again goes back to him ultimately being meaningless to the greater story - we aren't given anymore information because that information is irrelevant and quite simply a waste of time.
Fair points, Kapit. But it really feels like there have been way too many MacGuffins. Regarding the Emperor, sure, we didn't get much in the OT. But that was a very different situation. ANH was the very first movie and the Emperor was just a one line reference. He wasn't even a character at that point, and given that the whole thing was new, no one was expecting anything more at that point. It was an Empire, so it made sense there was an Emperor. We're in a very different place now after 7 previous movies, 8 including Rogue One. Plus all the cartoon episodes. For Snoke to show up in TFA in the leadership chair that Sidious vacated upon his death, and with the Empire still around as the First Order...understandably there'd be questions. I agree all the speculation on his identity was ridiculous. I was one of those saying he was likely just a new character. Problem is, he hardly even qualifies as that. Everything about him is pretty much taken from the Emperor with nothing unique to him. I'd have loved to have gotten some background on who he was, where he came from, what his aims are (without stealing from Palpatine here too). We didn't need subversion of audience expectations everywhere, especially when it didn't seem to jive with Abrams and Kasdan's intent. It'd be one thing if this whole trilogy was Rian's. And in that case, he probably could have chucked Snoke all together and not wasted our time over these two movies with such a useless character. But this wasn't his whole trilogy and was kickstarted by Abrams/Kasdan in TFA. I'd expect some respect and attempt at coherence with TFA. I'm not a fan of TFA, so I can understand Rian wanting to ignore or dismiss certain things. But not if the end result is for a messy sense of disconnect between the two movies.
Master Magnus wrote:
December 18th, 2017, 1:03 am
I don't agree since what was ultimately told by Luke on what transpired during the temple incident was completely at odds with what was shown in TFA (even considering that Luke may had drawn some conclusions as he didn't witness the events himself).
That's true. And I really wanted to see and find out about the Knights of Ren here.
It's as if Johnson opened Abrams mystery box, didn't like what was inside and retconned it.
I agree. LIke I commented above in response to Kapit, I'm bothered by aiming to "subvert" expectations to the extent of dropping, ignoring, or as you said retconning things in the very next movie to create something pretty messy 2/3 of the way into this trilogy. If Abrams and Terrio then step in and take a similar approach with IX...well, it's like we've said, doesn't seem encouraging for the conclusion.
In Star Wars you could tell that he was an inexperienced actor as he 'jumped' too much when he delivered his lines. He was better in TESB (and was really good acting against the Yoda puppet) and ROTJ though.
Sure, he wasn't a master class actor, but he did well for the most part. Based on his progression in the OT, and then on a lot of the great voice work he delivered and developed over the years, I felt pretty good about what he'd deliver here.
As I wrote elsewhere, it's as if nothing that happened in the OT mattered at all. The character arcs and growth of both Han Solo and Luke Skywalker in the OT were reset and ruined in TFA and TLJ respectively. Luke Skywalker was handled far worse than Han though and was reduced to a grumpy old man.
Agreed.
According to Iger, Abrams pitched the story for IX the day before yesterday.
Not that there was any doubt based on the product thus far, but clearly there was no overarching plan. Rian admitted to not being handed any kind of blueprint and doing what he wanted with VIII, and with a story for IX only being pitched now, obviously the same thing for it..

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by bango31 » December 19th, 2017, 1:02 am

Darth Bangkok wrote:
December 16th, 2017, 3:04 pm
I really despise Poe Dameron. He should have died in the crash on Jakku.

Rose - useless and annoying. So she wanted to save Finn from killing himself by crashing into his ship and killing both of them? Great idea.

the splicer, DJ i think his name was, even more annoying. Was given too much prominence in the movie. The fact that he was a splicer and was there is not a problem, but he character and dialogue was terrible.

Phasma should have been dead in the trash compactor. Or if not, and Han and Finn just locked her in there and didn't commit murder (although even if that happened she should have been dead when Starkiller Base exploded - what happened? Did they check the trash compactors before they evacuated in an emergency?) - why make her survive just to do nothing again and have another lame death in a really lame scene? (space metal burning everywhere and BB8 doing more stupid things without any hands).
I don't mind Poe at all. But Rose...I'm with you 100%. Completely useless character. Completely useless storyline. That entire Casino side quest thing was awful. One op-ed I saw called it a side mission from a bad video game, and I couldn't think of a better description. What was the point? So we could get some Disney morality tale on horse racing?
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by bango31 » December 19th, 2017, 1:06 am

toVor wrote:
December 15th, 2017, 6:42 pm
Would it be legitimate to say that Luke was vastly underused as well? My biggest disappointment with TFA was its underusing of Luke, and his lack of screen time and dialogue. This film gave us an entirely unexpected evolution of Luke Skywalker and his path on that island took too long to bring him back to us, so to speak. However, when he showed up in the rebel base at the end, albeit merely a projection, it was what I had expected and hoped when the Falcon left the island. But his apparent "death" at the very end was, well, poignant but also disappointing. So will he appear to train Rey as a spirit in the last episode? If so, okay; but if not, then WTH?

I loved, seriously loved Yoda's scene.

The movie still, like the film before it, told us nothing about the Knights of Ren. Or were the Knights of Ren those guys in red in Snoke's throne room?
Yoda and Luke's scene was the best part of the movie as far as I'm concerned.

And yes, Luke was brutally underused. And overall, he was poorly written. I understand the direction they wanted to go, and am on board with it, but boy did they botch the execution. I do like how at the end we got to see just how powerful he is, vis a vis Force projecting himself like he did, and I like how he died: the Force decided it was time. He didn't get killed by Kylo Ren or Snoke or any other nonsense.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by bango31 » December 19th, 2017, 1:08 am

DblDwn wrote:
December 15th, 2017, 5:36 pm
Initial thoughts are that I really liked it, but am still processing.

Spoiler warning, which seems redundant considering this is a spoiler thread, but I will say that, through two movies, Phasma and Snoke were both incredibly under-developed characters. Phasma, ok, but will we ever find out who Snoke was now?
They were completely wasted and I'm beyond pissed with what they did with Snoke. Movie and half spent building this dude up. Super powerful. Decaying face. WHO IS HE??? Oh never mind, he's dead.

WHAT?
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by toVor » December 19th, 2017, 2:33 pm

Another character underused was Maz Kanata. She was established in TFA as being at least 1000 years old, having a long history and vast knowledge behind her. She gave a very interesting and profound speech in TFA about the evils of the past rising again and the need to stand up to it. And in this movie she is what, given a 2 minute scene right off of a Star Trek: The Next Generation holodeck action game episode where she couldn't be bothered to pause her action game while giving our heroes some suggestions about tracking down a splicer? Really? We should have, if she was to be in the movie at all, seen her talking about the evils of the past again to at the least, give us more information about the First Order, maybe even the info about Snoke that so many of us wanted, and maybe some clues or hints of how they can be fought better based on tidbits of info she'd heard in her 1000 years.

Now some will say that she did exactly that by telling them about the splicer, but that scene fell far short of her scenes in TFA talking about the rising of evils, and to Rey about Luke's lightsaber calling out to her. Maz was another one sorely wasted in this film.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Magnus » December 19th, 2017, 2:54 pm

I wrote a reply and closed the window instead of hitting "Submit"... :x It was a rather long reply and I can't remember half of what I wrote... Anyway...
Kapit wrote:Now Snoke, he's just an evil dude who wields dark side powers and has a talent for manipulation. What more do you really need from him? How is that any different from what we got of the Emperor in ESB and ROTJ? They're bad guys to be defeated and Snoke just happened to be defeated in the middle act so that Kylo can take on the mantle of Big Bad. He's fulfilling not only an Obi-Wan style role for Kylo, but he's also part of Kylo's "Villains Journey", so to speak. Snoke was the embodiment of the "Atonement with the father" stage -- essentially the midpoint in Kylo's journey. Snoke was a McGuffin - a hurdle to overcome in order for Kylo to undergo his own transformation into the Big Bad. This again goes back to him ultimately being meaningless to the greater story - we aren't given anymore information because that information is irrelevant and quite simply a waste of time.
"Just an evil dude" á la the unseen Emperor in Star Wars would have worked if we walked blank into a new franchise where we don't know the characters, don't know the setting and don't know the "rules" of the new galaxy. Excluding the Disney-produced material, we have the Original Trilogy, the Prequel Trilogy and The Clone Wars. We know that in this dualistic universe, there are two kinds of Force wielders: The good Jedi Knights and the evil Sith Lords. With Snoke, we have a being who rivals Palpatine as a Force user and with ambitions to boot.

How does Snoke fit into the story? The answer: He doesn't. I don't agree that Snoke is a McGuffin simply because he can't function as such. Ben Solo's turn to the Dark Side is an important element of the story in The Last Jedi. How did Snoke get Ben Solo to the point that his uncle, Luke Skywalker who felt the good in his father and ultimately redeemed him, contemplated to commit the very un-Jedi like act to murder Ben Solo in his sleep?* The same Ben Solo who still was conflicted by the time of TLJ? Where was Snoke, with his aforementioned ambitions, during the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War? He would've thrown Palpatine around like a ragdoll. Despite the characters feeling disturbances in the Force left and right in the OT, no one senses or warns anyone about that threat.

*This part was absolutely the worst character choice made for Luke Skywalker and it flew directly in the face of his character arc of the Original Trilogy.

The handling of Snoke is yet another example of the poor worldbuilding and the disjointed nature of these movies. For all his flaws, this is something George Lucas is good at. He made decisions as he went along, but the OT and PT feels more connected than these two movies do.
borgmatrix wrote:Not that there was any doubt based on the product thus far, but clearly there was no overarching plan. Rian admitted to not being handed any kind of blueprint and doing what he wanted with VIII, and with a story for IX only being pitched now, obviously the same thing for it..
Indeed. Unlike the PT and OT, this doesn't feel like a three-part act.

A few more things I've pondered about since I watched the movie:
  • The humor is truly, truly awful. Poe's "jokes" at the start of the movie almost took me out of it. The things I did find funny was Snoke's "take off that ridiculous helmet" and the Porgs. Really, the Porgs was the highlight of the movie.
  • While Carrie Fisher shone, I really disliked the Mary Poppins-esqe scene.
  • Why did the Rebel Alliance bother to attack the Death Stars (or the Starkiller for that matter) as a ship crewed by droids could simply have jumped into the Death Star's reactor?
  • Dameron Poe made contact with Maz. And they knew each other how?
  • Canto Bight... The whole point of virtually every patron making money by supplying weapons to both sides of the conflict is ridiculous as there AREN'T two sides. On the one hand we have the First Order that has a fleet and "legions" of Storm Troopers and on the other we have, at most, a few thousand who were down to less than four hundred people when landing on Hoth... sorry , Crait with a few X-Wings, A-Wings, bombers and a "fleet" consisting of three capital ships. Ridiculous and far too minimalistic. George Lucas isn't good to express scale in numbers, but he's understanding scale and how to show it.

    Though I liked Canto Bight as a setting, it has some of the worst alien designs and puppet/animatronics of the Star Wars movies (I feel the same way about some of the aliens at Maz's castle. Heck, I think the Wolfman in the cantina was a better design than some.)
  • I have to wonder if Rian Johnson really has watched The Empire Strikes Back? The whole plot of the fleet outrunning Snoke's ship (how did they know it was his ship?) for hours and hours was ridiculous. In TESB, two Star Destroyers was cutting the Falcon off and it was only because of Han's daredevil maneuvering that they failed. Here, the Raddus is travelling on a straight course and the First Order doesn't order its ships to cut it off or hyperspace in in front of it to slow it down. Heck, they don't even employ their TIEs to fire their missiles, that we earlier had seen destroying the bridge of the Raddus, at the engines.

    Also, the whole point of the Imperial assault on Hoth (Vader wanted to capture Luke alive) seems to have got right by Johnson. There was no need for the walkers in TLJ. Just obliterate the base from orbit: The 300+ people had nowhere to go anyway. It was just one of the many plot conveniences of TLJ.

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Kapit
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Kapit » December 19th, 2017, 3:28 pm

bango31 wrote:
December 19th, 2017, 1:08 am
They were completely wasted and I'm beyond pissed with what they did with Snoke. Movie and half spent building this dude up. Super powerful. Decaying face. WHO IS HE??? Oh never mind, he's dead.

WHAT?
Think about the scenes in TLJ that feature Snoke and try to imagine any backstory being presented whatsoever. Is he going to tell Hux or Kylo his life story out of nowhere, especially considering they probably know most of it? Or, okay, he tells Rey, and we're suddenly inundated with a buttload of superfluous exposition in the middle of a stuffed movie while Rey's left floating there so the villain can monologue for some reason? His backstory is irrelevant to her plan to save Kylo, it's irrelevant to Kylo's plan to overthrow Snoke, and it's irrelevant to the movie as a whole.

As to this supposed "build up", that is 100% on the fans. Officially he's only been name-dropped in a book and a few comics but that's it - just his name. Nothing else is given to him, no hints, no teasers, nothing whatsoever. His entire existence is to be an obstacle for Kylo to overcome and that's exactly what happened. Just because the audience wants to know the backstory doesn't make it relevant to the movie we're watching.
tovor wrote: And in this movie she is what, given a 2 minute scene right off of a Star Trek: The Next Generation holodeck action game episode where she couldn't be bothered to pause her action game while giving our heroes some suggestions about tracking down a splicer? Really?
She's in the middle of a dispute with miners, trying not to get killed. Can't really pause that kind of thing :P
We should have, if she was to be in the movie at all, seen her talking about the evils of the past again to at the least, give us more information about the First Order, maybe even the info about Snoke that so many of us wanted, and maybe some clues or hints of how they can be fought better based on tidbits of info she'd heard in her 1000 years.

Now some will say that she did exactly that by telling them about the splicer, but that scene fell far short of her scenes in TFA talking about the rising of evils, and to Rey about Luke's lightsaber calling out to her. Maz was another one sorely wasted in this film.
What more information do you need? Snoke and the FO are trying to take over the galaxy after wiping out the New Republic. Poe and the rest are keenly aware of this since they're being chased around the galaxy by the FO fleet. To have her go on about how evil is bad yet again would just be retreading old ground. She had to the say it in TFA to remind the audience that this cycle happens an awful lot in their galaxy, but by the time TLJ happens we already know that the FO has destroyed an entire system on top of just bombarding the crap out of the Resistance.

Maz overall is a victim of the same thing Phasma was a victim of - there's too much going on already in TLJ, but they needed to keep these characters in the movie. Maz's role felt far more natural than Phasma's and considering Maz's reputation for knowing people and things she is the one to be called. It also gives JJ a great excuse to bring Maz back with some sort of pirate fleet to assist the new Rebels in Episode 9. Hell, she could even go so far as to track down old Rebel hero Lando Calrissian. Who knows, man. This movie just wasn't the showcase for Maz Kanata.

Honestly, though, you should be more concerned about how Poe, whom as far as we are aware has never met Maz, knew to call her. Finn calling her would've made more sense to me.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by DblDwn » December 20th, 2017, 1:42 am

So after we are lead to believe that Maz accompanied Han, Chewie, and Finn back to the Resistance Base after the First Order destroyed her castle on Takodana in TFA, so that we can accept that Poe would have met her despite zero screen time together, we should also believe that Poe genuinely introduced himself to Rey for the first time in TLJ given that they are onscreen together at the Resistance Base at the end of TFA when BB8 pieces the "Map to Skywalker" together with R2? She was Finn's focal reason for going to Starkiller with Han, more so than taking out the oscillator even. Finn also told Poe upon first realizing he was alive in TFA that he needed his help to rescue Rey. So Poe never would have bothered to meet Finn's "friend" despite them being on screen together when Luke's location was discovered and she was the one chosen to reach out to him?

I'm all for suspension of disbelief but some things are just blatant attempts at inept storytelling.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Darth Bangkok » December 20th, 2017, 8:43 am

Its like Johnson not only threw away the OT&PT, but also the ST!

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Kapit » December 20th, 2017, 9:49 am

DblDwn wrote:
December 20th, 2017, 1:42 am
So after we are lead to believe that Maz accompanied Han, Chewie, and Finn back to the Resistance Base after the First Order destroyed her castle on Takodana in TFA, so that we can accept that Poe would have met her despite zero screen time together, we should also believe that Poe genuinely introduced himself to Rey for the first time in TLJ given that they are onscreen together at the Resistance Base at the end of TFA when BB8 pieces the "Map to Skywalker" together with R2? She was Finn's focal reason for going to Starkiller with Han, more so than taking out the oscillator even. Finn also told Poe upon first realizing he was alive in TFA that he needed his help to rescue Rey. So Poe never would have bothered to meet Finn's "friend" despite them being on screen together when Luke's location was discovered and she was the one chosen to reach out to him?

I'm all for suspension of disbelief but some things are just blatant attempts at inept storytelling.
Being in the same room with someone doesn't necessarily preclude meeting them. I look at it like this - when you go to concert you don't have to meet the people around you. You share an experience and move on with your lives. Rey and Poe are both just getting back from some harrowing adventure and with the excitement surrounding the map I'd imagine the turnaround time for Rey leaving is pretty short. It's not at all outside the realm of possibility that they don't actually meet each other.

Also, I may be wrong, but I don't think Poe is in the crowd when the Falcon leaves? Perhaps after the map reveal he had somewhere to be, thus delaying the meeting with Rey once again.
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