Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

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Darth Fool
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Darth Fool » December 20th, 2017, 11:31 am

The TFA novelisation included a first meeting between Rey and Poe and (as I remember it) it played out similarly to the onscreen one in TLJ.

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Master Magnus
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Magnus » December 20th, 2017, 12:29 pm

Perhaps I should be a bit more clear about the things I liked about the movie...
  • Mark Hamill's, Carrie Fishers and Daisy Ridley's performances
  • John Williams's score
  • The old friend
  • The Porgs! Love the Porgs!
  • Some aspects of Canto Bight as a setting
  • Snoke ordering Kylo Ren to remove his "ridiculous helmet"
  • That Rey is a nobody (if Kylo speaks the truth)
  • That we finally got to see one of the Falcon's escape pods
That's pretty much it...

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Zapp Brannigan » December 20th, 2017, 1:06 pm

Is anyone else actually pissed about this movie? It was garbage in my opinion. The whole movie was about the fleet running out of gas, and Admiral Purple-Hair whatsherface's plan was apparently, "let's just let everyone else get lit up and maybe we'll make it." All Luke did was act like a [expletive removed]. He almost went into something I would have really liked to see explored, the hypocrisy and general "full of bs-ness" of the old Jedi, but he said exactly one sentence about it. When it FINALLY seemed like Luke would do something cool, the moment was cheapened by him being a projection. I know Luke and the old characters are not the focus of this new trilogy, but is it really too much to ask that he at least do something really cool? Other than that, not a lot happened in this movie other than Snoke dying.

My take-aways were:

-The original trilogy is meaningless now (Hey, we defeated the Empire, except, we didn't!)
-Poe was trained in military strategy by my profile's namesake
-The Resistance or Rebellion or whatever is run by morons (Hey low-level maintenance tech, why don't you jump in this attack speeder?)
-Kylo is a wuss (except when he killed Snoke and took over, that part was actually kinda cool)
-Rey is still boring
-Finn is still boring
-Luke is a lazy-ass whiner

Did I miss anything? I mean, I went into this movie with tempered expectations, because I thought The Force Awakens was just so-so, but, man, I expected to at least not get the worst Star Wars movie of them all (Episode II, you're off the hook, at least you had some cool scenes). I may be out on buying a $9 ticket to the next of the sequels. I'm sick of paying for crap. Not just SW, but a lot of things these days.
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Master Magnus
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Magnus » December 20th, 2017, 2:14 pm

Zapp Brannigan wrote:
December 20th, 2017, 1:06 pm
Is anyone else actually pissed about this movie? It was garbage in my opinion. The whole movie was about the fleet running out of gas, and Admiral Purple-Hair whatsherface's plan was apparently, "let's just let everyone else get lit up and maybe we'll make it." All Luke did was act like a [expletive removed]. He almost went into something I would have really liked to see explored, the hypocrisy and general "full of bs-ness" of the old Jedi, but he said exactly one sentence about it. When it FINALLY seemed like Luke would do something cool, the moment was cheapened by him being a projection. I know Luke and the old characters are not the focus of this new trilogy, but is it really too much to ask that he at least do something really cool? Other than that, not a lot happened in this movie other than Snoke dying.

My take-aways were:

-The original trilogy is meaningless now (Hey, we defeated the Empire, except, we didn't!)
-Poe was trained in military strategy by my profile's namesake
-The Resistance or Rebellion or whatever is run by morons (Hey low-level maintenance tech, why don't you jump in this attack speeder?)
-Kylo is a wuss (except when he killed Snoke and took over, that part was actually kinda cool)
-Rey is still boring
-Finn is still boring
-Luke is a lazy-ass whiner

Did I miss anything? I mean, I went into this movie with tempered expectations, because I thought The Force Awakens was just so-so, but, man, I expected to at least not get the worst Star Wars movie of them all (Episode II, you're off the hook, at least you had some cool scenes). I may be out on buying a $9 ticket to the next of the sequels. I'm sick of paying for crap. Not just SW, but a lot of things these days.
Welcome back to the Senate! Just think about the language (I removed one expletive)...

The more I think of it, the more I think that The Last Jedi is the worst Star Wars movie. There is no plot and its thematically weak. Poe Dameron, one of the worst main characters of Star Wars (the other is Finn, and I'm actually one of those people who kind of liked Jar Jar). Even through the inappropriate opening with the phone(!) and "your mother" jokes I thought that I shouldn't believe that the entire movie would be bad, but alas...

The whole plot that the First Order/Resistance or is it Rebels again or whatever, story was strung to, the First Order chasing the Battlestar Galact... sorry the Raddus, on a straight course for 18 hours while Finn and Rose goes on a detour to Canto Bight was appallingly bad. And Finn... The best informed janitor in the GFFA, sorry, the entire universe, just happens to know how the hyperspace tracking works and where it's located on Snoke's immense ship.

There is no sense of wonder and one of the main take aways of TFA and TLJ for me is that nothing in the OT ultimately mattered. What's the point of saving the galaxy when 30 years later an Ugly Random Force Dude emerges and hits the reset button.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Darth Bangkok » December 20th, 2017, 4:02 pm

I was pissed and offended by this movie as well. There's not much good about it. Chewie dropping off Rey was cool, the porgs exceeded my expectations bc they were fine- not annoying or even out of place, not much more though. Glad to see I'm not the lone voice anymore.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by DblDwn » December 20th, 2017, 5:07 pm

The Resistance ship being named after General Raddus is pretty cool though.

I will add that Rose was an absolutely useless character. No purpose. No point. No logical story arc. Her sister was a more significant character and she was in the movie for 45 seconds. She was basically an intergalactic PETA member who prevented Finn from a monumental moment that would have been the most significant sacrifice of the entire saga.

I have a personal opinion for why the character was added, which I have shared on a fellow Senator's Facebook post (for which I was then called out by another fellow Senator, whom I respect immensely), so for that reason I will leave it here at my comments above.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Vibroblade » December 20th, 2017, 7:04 pm

Watch TLJ again.

I had a much better impression on repeat viewing. Not a perfect movie but quite enjoyable IMHO.

I feel that my original opinion was jaded by preconceptions. Once I excepted that my fanboy fantasies were not going to be fulfilled, I could actually appreciate the movie as it is. To each his own. I certainly understand why some of you hate it but I think it may grow a bit on those that are ambivalent with time. To those that hate it, I’m truly sorry. I know what SW means to each of us.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » December 21st, 2017, 10:11 am

Kapit wrote:
December 19th, 2017, 3:28 pm
Think about the scenes in TLJ that feature Snoke and try to imagine any backstory being presented whatsoever. Is he going to tell Hux or Kylo his life story out of nowhere, especially considering they probably know most of it? Or, okay, he tells Rey, and we're suddenly inundated with a buttload of superfluous exposition in the middle of a stuffed movie while Rey's left floating there so the villain can monologue for some reason? His backstory is irrelevant to her plan to save Kylo, it's irrelevant to Kylo's plan to overthrow Snoke, and it's irrelevant to the movie as a whole.
Look, if the argument is "these guys have done such a poor job with the writing so far, why would we expect them to get Snoke's backstory in in a good way"...okay, I can see that. Fair point. But they are writers, so I'm going to have expectations that they can write (despite the evidence, perhaps). We had scenes with Luke and Rey in which Luke spoke about the Force, and then later about the mistakes of the Jedi handed down from Master to apprentice. There's no reason why that couldn't have been done with Snoke/Ren, especially since they set up for some kind of training for Kylo in TFA when Snoke ordered Hux to bring Kylo back to complete his training. In that context, we could have gotten thoughts from Snoke on the nature of the Dark Side and using the Force. Rather than just naming dropping Vader, we could have heard from Snoke on his philosophy versus that of Sidious/Vader and instructional thoughts on what he thought they did wrong. And not only would this have given us more from Snoke, but it would have been incredibly relevant to Kylo Ren's journey to resist the Light and stay with the Dark Side. Certainly more relevant than a lot of the junk in the Resistance fleet thread.

On another topic: Has there been any discussion on Force ghost Yoda bringing down the lightning that burned down the tree? If Force ghosts can interact with the physical world like that, couldn't Yoda or Kenobi have taken out Vader or Sidious at some point, or in some way struck against the bad guys?

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Magnus » December 21st, 2017, 3:57 pm

borgmatrix wrote:
December 21st, 2017, 10:11 am
On another topic: Has there been any discussion on Force ghost Yoda bringing down the lightning that burned down the tree? If Force ghosts can interact with the physical world like that, couldn't Yoda or Kenobi have taken out Vader or Sidious at some point, or in some way struck against the bad guys?
Nope. It was just another example of the ST changing the rules again.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Zapp Brannigan » December 21st, 2017, 4:12 pm

Master Magnus wrote:
December 20th, 2017, 2:14 pm

Welcome back to the Senate! Just think about the language (I removed one expletive)...
....

There is no sense of wonder and one of the main take aways of TFA and TLJ for me is that nothing in the OT ultimately mattered. What's the point of saving the galaxy when 30 years later an Ugly Random Force Dude emerges and hits the reset button.
Thanks man! My bad, didn't think that was considered a swear. But anyway, yeah, you're right, not only are these new movies bad, they pretty much negate the classic movies that made us all fall in love in the first place. How would everyone feel if they made another Lord of the Rings where suddenly a new dark wizard managed to dig the ring out of the lava and we gotta start over? It's pretty much the same principle.
Vibroblade wrote:
December 20th, 2017, 7:04 pm
Watch TLJ again.

I had a much better impression on repeat viewing. Not a perfect movie but quite enjoyable IMHO.

I feel that my original opinion was jaded by preconceptions. Once I excepted that my fanboy fantasies were not going to be fulfilled, I could actually appreciate the movie as it is. To each his own. I certainly understand why some of you hate it but I think it may grow a bit on those that are ambivalent with time. To those that hate it, I’m truly sorry. I know what SW means to each of us.
Hate is a strong word, homie. lol. It certainly wasn't the worst movie I've ever seen, but the worst Star Wars no doubt. I will watch it again, when it comes out on home release, but if I have to try and force myself to like something, that's crap and I'm lying to myself because it's SW and I want it to be good.

I gave Disney a chance, went in with an open mind, but they're destroying the franchise, and no one is coming to save it because no one else has 4 billion dollars to spend on it. I will give them a little credit, Rouge One was enjoyable and I'm hoping the Solo movie will follow suit, but this Sequel Trilogy is trash. To top it all off, we're barred from even getting good SW games now, because Disney sold exclusive rights to EA, and now instead of great games like KOTOR, the Jedi Knight games, the original 2 Battlefront games, Rouge Squadron, and Shadows of the Empire, we get a half-baked Battlefront rehash every year. Also, the new EU books are not nearly as good as the stuff Disney threw out.

Like I hinted at in my earlier post, this new Star Wars is kind of like the last straw as far as big franchises go for me. I'm sick of being sold crap with a nice shiny license on it. These multi-billion dollar companies get their hands on beloved franchises and just push out some turds, because they know they can sell it on brand recognition alone. To avoid getting further off topic, I'll stop there, but that's what's really pissing me off. Not just this Star Wars, but everything.
Formerly known as Dark Helmet :vader:

"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide-mission." :cool:

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by DblDwn » December 21st, 2017, 6:06 pm

First off, Battlefront II is epic. The graphics are top shelf. The gameplay is top shelf. And if you struggle at "ranking" up without spending any additional money out-of-pocket then I suggest a $2000 Nintendo rehash via eBay so that you can kick Bowser's butt again on Mario. My 10-year old daughter and I play this all the time, 3 lives and then pass the controller, and my 7-year old daughter is getting into it now as well.

That said, I was flustered, for lack of a better term, when Snoke died with no insight into his origin, his rise to power, or his claim as Supreme Leader. Not because I had a pre-conceived notion, okay perhaps I did ☺, but rather because we know nothing about why he was the "Supreme Leader" or what he did that put him in that position during a 30 year story gap.

In hindsight I have determined that I don't care about who Snoke is or why he came to power. Clearly he was a bridge to support Kylo's growth from Luke's student to Supreme Leader of the First Order. Now, what I do care about is how he was able to manipulate Ben into betraying Luke'a Jedi Order and, literally, burning it to the ground before assuming the identity of Kylo. Leia tells Han in TFA that it was Snoke. Han tells Kylo that it was Snoke. Ok, so how was it Snoke? Did Snoke play Palpatine to Ben's Anakin? If so, how? We see that manipulation in the PT so it is now believable. We don't have that manipulation explained yet in the ST so there is limited believability.

The ball would now appear to be in JJ's court.........

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Zapp Brannigan » December 21st, 2017, 7:26 pm

I wasn't saying the games were necessarily bad, I just have a problem that the only SW games coming out for the foreseeable future are online multiplayer shooters, when the universe has so much more to offer the gaming landscape. Plus, there are so many online arena shooters now, and they're all pretty much the same with a different coat of paint. Most of them are fine, but to me, Battlefront is just COD or Battlefield, or whatever with some Star Wars imagery thrown in.

But, yeah, we'll see how this next one goes. The whole thing about Ben's fall to the dark side I think was answered. Han and Leia sent Ben to go be trained by Luke, and Luke tried to kill him in his sleep. It probably wasn't hard to convince Ben to switch sides after that.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » December 21st, 2017, 8:53 pm

DblDwn wrote:
December 21st, 2017, 6:06 pm
In hindsight I have determined that I don't care about who Snoke is or why he came to power. Clearly he was a bridge to support Kylo's growth from Luke's student to Supreme Leader of the First Order.
Abrams and Kasdan obviously expected whoever picked up the story in Episode VIII would expand on Snoke. Rian Johnson, clearly, didn't care for the character and offed him. I really, really wish we had one writer/director overseeing this. If it had been Johnson from the start, for instance, maybe we could have avoided Snoke entirely. We could have had a KOTOR approach, where things kicked off with Malak in control and the backstory given upfront of him turning on Revan. And, of course, we ended up getting a lot of great backstory and content with Revan as the story moved on, something I doubt we'll get with Snoke in IX.
Leia tells Han in TFA that it was Snoke. Han tells Kylo that it was Snoke.
Even Luke mentioned it. When we saw the flashback of him standing over Ren with his saber ignited, he said something to Rey about how Snoke had already twisted or influenced Ren.
Ok, so how was it Snoke? Did Snoke play Palpatine to Ben's Anakin? If so, how?
Again, I'm pretty sure Abrams envisioned some kind of explanation in VIII, but I don't get the sense Rian was thinking about this at all or cared.
The ball would now appear to be in JJ's court.........
This trilogy is already such a mess, I honestly wouldn't mind if Abrams similarly reversed course on some of Rian's choices. Reveal Ren lied about Rey's parents. Have Snoke somehow survive. I don't know what to expect, but...bring it on. It might be spectacle of the trainwreck variety, but I'm really curious as to how he wraps this up.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by DblDwn » December 22nd, 2017, 5:28 pm

It's now canon that Maul survived being sliced in half and falling down a shaft in TPM yet Snoke died from the same thing? With Snoke laying there dead when Hux had aspirations of killing Kylo I reckon it would be difficult to spin it that Snoke somehow survived. That said I would be fine with it turning out that Kylo lied to Rey, although there are only so many options for who her parents could be instead. So few in fact that it would almost weaken the story more for it to have been a lie.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » December 22nd, 2017, 6:46 pm


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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Magnus » December 25th, 2017, 12:48 pm

I think it could still have worked and been better than the silly, out-of-place scene we got with Maz:

Space.com: Lando Calrissian Almost Appeared in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi'

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Darth Bangkok » December 26th, 2017, 4:41 am

The biggest disappointment for me is that these movies haven't explored the nature of the Force, or put any closure/contemplation on Episodes I-VI. Episode VII didn't rule it up, and in fact set it up nicely and it was still possible. But now that Episode VIII is out, it won't happen. I guess it was inevitable once disney took over and wants to make movies in perpetuity instead of something along the lines of Lucas' vision.

In Ep. IV-VI, it was good and bad, black and white, light side and dark side. Then in EP. I-III it was "wait! the bad guy was a good guy! the best good guy!?!" And we saw that the Jedi had their flaws and in fact wound up helping to create the Empire itself. Wait, the Republic became the Empire!

So things we not cut and dry any more. The movies were growing up with us.

Then Ep VI happened. Luke brought Vader back to the light. Was Luke the Chosen One? What's really the nature of the Force? how should the Jedi adapt? Do we need them anymore? Should they evolve into something different?

Instead we get what we got. Skipping ahead 30 years to wait for some kids to grow up while the main characters of the OT didn't absolutely nothing. We get an emo villain that we are supposed to believe is "conflicted" but we barely see the surface skimmed of any confliction. He killed Snoke because he was pissed off and figured Rey could be his apprentice, not because he was conflicted between good and bad. Etc. etc.

I would have liked to see an end to Star Wars, just not in this way.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Siamese Sith » December 26th, 2017, 2:16 pm

I have many questions but the one that I keep coming back to is if Snoke was the one that connected Rey and Kylo so they could communicate with each other prior to the throne room scene....which he admits he was. Who connected them together at the end when Rey is moving the rocks so the resistance can escape from the base?
There’s a video on YT that made me contemplate this, they can take the easy road and say they’ve both taken their first steps into a larger world, or Snoke isn’t who we’ve seen in the first two films or he allowed Kylo to kill him for some reason. The latter would be so much more satisfying.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » December 27th, 2017, 11:57 am

Siamese Sith wrote:
December 26th, 2017, 2:16 pm
I have many questions but the one that I keep coming back to is if Snoke was the one that connected Rey and Kylo so they could communicate with each other prior to the throne room scene....which he admits he was. Who connected them together at the end when Rey is moving the rocks so the resistance can escape from the base?
My guess, SS, would be that it's not some other individual at work, but that the original connection Snoke created continues to exist. Either such a connection is not so easily broken, or it's something about how Rey and Ren responded to one another that has maintained it (or both).
There’s a video on YT that made me contemplate this, they can take the easy road and say they’ve both taken their first steps into a larger world, or Snoke isn’t who we’ve seen in the first two films or he allowed Kylo to kill him for some reason. The latter would be so much more satisfying.
I don't see Snoke wanting to die, and nothing about his final scene hinted at him even contemplating that he could die. I'd say this is more about Ren (in particular, as he killed Snoke) stepping out on his own. I hope Abrams continues the Rey/Ren thread well and makes good use of their connection. If it's just Rey/Light vs Ren/Dark, I'll be disappointed.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by thepepgal » January 3rd, 2018, 10:47 am

I finally had a chance to see the film for a second time. I still prefer this film to TFA.

Things I liked:

1. Porgs
2. Carrie's performance
3. Rey's character development
4. Rose
5. Chewie
6. The score
7. The amount of battle scenes
8. Kylo being duped by Luke's battle appearance.

I can accept:

1. Luke's death scene and what caused it. Why he lied to Yoda about reading the jedi text is a stretch, as he didn't learn the projection from Yoda or Obi Wan. The fact he found the planet with the first Jedi Temple means he did search to locate more information to be able to expand his knowledge.
2. Leia surviving and using the force to return to ship. (It was slowed down too much which made her appear to be outside longer than she was.)
3. The silence effect when Holdo slams the cruiser. (GL admitted he shouldn't have sound in space. Unfortunately it has set the precedence in SW universe as was followed in the rest of the battle
4. Yoda's appearance but wouldn't have shared his thoughts earlier.
5. Kylo lying to Rey about parents. JJ stated they were featured in previous SW film. Ep 9 will give us the real answer as well as Finn's. Then their characters will have last names.

I dislike:

1. The killing of all of the Resistance command on the bridge. To clean sweep all the old characters out felt hastie.
2. The 2d villians (Snoke, Hux and Phasma). They should have been developed more on screen.
3. The opening crawl. This film is set immediately after TFA so how has First Order had a chance to take over the Republic's peaceful worlds prior to the film starting?
4. That in a universe of billions of people that the Resistance was one Fleet.
5. The Resistance Fleet running out of fuel.
6. The Resistance not having a code breaker already. The original Rebel Alliance had an intelligence group. Yes many Bothans died but in 30 years they didn't recruit more?
7.TFA established that the First Order was an remenant of the Empire. Suddenly they are the ultimate power? I can't see planets abandoning their defence forces after fall of the Empire.

Finally I know Carrie's death has changed the direction of the next film. As I now feel it is no longer a trilogy as Disney missed the chance to have old characters interact with each other. It was why GL screen tested them together. Ep 9 will now be the film to take the SW universe in the new direction Disney wants. All the old characters in pivotal roles are now gone. New broom has swept clean.
Remember, the Force will be with you always.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » January 3rd, 2018, 12:10 pm

thepepgal wrote:
January 3rd, 2018, 10:47 am
Things I liked:

1. Porgs
They were cute. I think their screentime was just right.
2. Carrie's performance
It's been hard for me to see the Leia/Carrie of the OT. No specific criticisms of her performance, though.
3. Rey's character development
I like what we got. I really hope they do something meaningful with her connection with Ren in the next one. That, for me, was the highlight of TLJ.
5. Chewie
I really wish we'd gotten more of him, and more that was meaningful. Same for Artoo. Didn't play well for me that they had such limited time with Luke, or that he wouldn't have responded in some way to their attempts to get through to him. Scenes felt flat. Wish Chewie had gone for Luke's throat like he had Lando's in ESB. And with Artoo, after shutting down and being the robot version of catatonic over Luke's absence, I'd have expected him to self-destruct the way Luke responded to him.
The killing of all of the Resistance command on the bridge. To clean sweep all the old characters out felt hastie.
Agreed. Hasty and a waste. I like Laura Dern, but I'm not sure why they couldn't have had Ackbar in command while Leia was out of commission.
2. The 2d villians (Snoke, Hux and Phasma). They should have been developed more on screen.
Snoke has pretty much been useless as a character, so I didn't mind them offing him. But it felt like a waste to not give us something on who he is, where he came from, and how he ended up in command of the First Order. As I said before, instead of name-dropping Vader a couple times, I'd have preferred to have heard what he thought of Sidious/Vader's reign and downfall. Some meaningful comparison in the context of instructing Ren would have been great.

With Hux, I thought his screentime was fine, but didn't care for them turning him into a complete joke here. Certainly doesn't benefit the character, but also works against any suspense when he's the clown pursuing the resistance fleet. Wish they'd continued to build the rivalry between him and Ren that Abrams had showcased in TFA.
3. The opening crawl. This film is set immediately after TFA so how has First Order had a chance to take over the Republic's peaceful worlds prior to the film starting?
It seems blowing up multiple worlds and the Republic government in TFA was enough to give the galaxy to the First Order. Again, a waste. Feels like these past two movies should have been focused on the government that had developed since ROTJ and on a new enemy threat rather than rehashing Rebellion vs Empire.
4. That in a universe of billions of people that the Resistance was one Fleet.
5. The Resistance Fleet running out of fuel.
Felt to me like they were inspired by Moore's Battlestar Galactica with some of these elements, but it didn't feel like it fit to shove them in here. The Resistance fleet fleeing from the pursuing enemy that can track them through hyperspace paled in comparison to the similar scenario in BSG's 33, which had so much more tension/suspense with a much shorter running time. Things like running out of fuel felt perfect in BSG's universe, where they ran with those kinds of details from the start. But in Episode VIII of SW to have this sort of thing pop up for the first time...
6. The Resistance not having a code breaker already. The original Rebel Alliance had an intelligence group. Yes many Bothans died but in 30 years they didn't recruit more?
Or why Maz couldn't have actually given them a name in tracking this guy down.
7.TFA established that the First Order was an remenant of the Empire. Suddenly they are the ultimate power? I can't see planets abandoning their defence forces after fall of the Empire.
None of this was thought out. Like I mentioned above, the focus was on the wrong things, on re-playing what we'd already gotten in the OT. I really wish they'd taken more time to develop where the galaxy was a couple decades after ROTJ. But by just using the ANH outline, they forced the galaxy and these characters into old roles, forcing square pegs into round holes. I really wish they'd taken a blank page and extrapolated where the galaxy and characters would have been in a natural progression from where things stood at the end of ROTJ, rather than springboarding off of ANH.
As I now feel it is no longer a trilogy as Disney missed the chance to have old characters interact with each other. It was why GL screen tested them together. Ep 9 will now be the film to take the SW universe in the new direction Disney wants. All the old characters in pivotal roles are now gone. New broom has swept clean.
And its taken them two movies to get to where we should have been at the start of TFA. We could have seen Luke, Han, and Leia together there with legacies intact and grown out of ROTJ, while putting the focus/emphasis on new characters (Rey, Finn, Ren, Poe, Snoke) in new situations. Imagine where this trilogy would be at this point at the end of Episode VIII if they'd done that.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Magnus » January 3rd, 2018, 12:22 pm

thepepgal wrote:
January 3rd, 2018, 10:47 am
I finally had a chance to see the film for a second time. I still prefer this film to TFA.

Things I liked:

1. Porgs
2. Carrie's performance
3. Rey's character development
4. Rose
5. Chewie
6. The score
7. The amount of battle scenes
8. Kylo being duped by Luke's battle appearance.
Oh, the Porgs... Love the Porgs! I also liked Carrie Fisher's performance, but I think the "Mary Poppins"-scene would've been treated more harshly had she not passed away.
thepepgal wrote:3. The opening crawl. This film is set immediately after TFA so how has First Order had a chance to take over the Republic's peaceful worlds prior to the film starting?
I don't think that's what the opening crawl says. It says that:
The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deploys his merciless
legions to seize
military
control of the galaxy.
Leia also mentions that the First Order could control the most important systems within weeks.
thepepgal wrote:4. That in a universe of billions of people that the Resistance was one Fleet.
With the Empire comprised of a million member worlds, more like trillions or quadrillions of people. Yes, that's one of the things I didn't like as well. George Lucas understands and can show scale, even if he can't express it in numbers. The writers of these movies don't understand scale and the minimalism is glaring. From an in-universe perspective: While the novel Bloodline goes into some detail, it's still pretty dumb. The Clone Army in the PT was built in secret while everyone on Canto Bight seems to have been profiteering on selling arms to "both" sides of the conflict (how they could've made money selling a few X-Wings to the Resistance while apparently selling capital ships etc. to the First Order is beyond me).

And at the end of the movie, the Resistance... or is it Rebels again... are down to a number that fits on board the Millennium Falcon... Oh brother...
thepepgal wrote:5. The Resistance Fleet running out of fuel.
In my opinion this was the weakest plot of the SW movies. While Johnson tried to echo The Empire Strikes Back with the Raddus in place of the Falcon, I think it failed completely and felt to me as a boring version of the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica pilot 33 (in which the plot made more sense and that the crew of the BG actually accomplished something). Heck, they should have hired Ronald D. Moore, a competent writer, instead.

Fuel has never been an issue before (besides a Rebels episode I barely remember). And if the fuel supply was that scarce, how the heck could Finn and Rose have fuel to roam the galaxy?
thepepgal wrote:7.TFA established that the First Order was an remenant of the Empire. Suddenly they are the ultimate power? I can't see planets abandoning their defence forces after fall of the Empire.
I think the whole First Order is somewhat confusing due to the lack of world building in both movies. However...

One year after the death of Emperor Palpatine, the battle of Jakku took place. The Galactic Empire lost the battle, but some Imperials managed to flee to the Unknown Regions. Following the battle, a treaty was negotiated between the Republic and the Imperial Remnant. According to the treaty, the Empire would control the Core and Inner Rim and their fleets were restricted to those areas. Some other Imperial groups resisted, resulting in a Cold War with the Republic. Some Senators secretly loyal to the values of the Empire within the Republic formed the Centrist fraction that wanted to restore the Empire.

What happened with the various Imperial factions and does the Remnant still exist? I don't know. I've outlined the events of the Aftermath-trilogy and Bloodline above. The Aftermath-trilogy is the worst written EU I've read and I could never finish it. Bloodline is pretty good though. I also don't think one should have to turn to secondary material.


I think the whole First Order, Snoke and the Empire vs. Rebels rehash were huge mistakes... There are other ways to create drama, tension and excitement.
thepepgal wrote:Finally I know Carrie's death has changed the direction of the next film. As I now feel it is no longer a trilogy as Disney missed the chance to have old characters interact with each other. It was why GL screen tested them together. Ep 9 will now be the film to take the SW universe in the new direction Disney wants. All the old characters in pivotal roles are now gone. New broom has swept clean.
I frankly don't think that TFA and TLJ feels very much connected at all. I also think LFL/Disney made a huge blunder as the Big Three never was reunited again. I also don't think that Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford would've overshadowed the new cast. There were other ways to write the characters. I'm also displeased that J.J. Abrams, with his mystery box that only offers speculation, returns as director and writer.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » January 3rd, 2018, 1:33 pm

Master Magnus wrote:
January 3rd, 2018, 12:22 pm
In my opinion this was the weakest plot of the SW movies. While Johnson tried to echo The Empire Strikes Back with the Raddus in place of the Falcon, I think it failed completely and felt to me as a boring version of the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica pilot 33 (in which the plot made more sense and that the crew of the BG actually accomplished something). Heck, they should have hired Ronald D. Moore, a competent writer, instead.
We must have been writing our posts above at about the same time, and apparently on the same wavelength. Agreed! :laugh:
I frankly don't think that TFA and TLJ feels very much connected at all. I also think LFL/Disney made a huge blunder as the Big Three never was reunited again. I also don't think that Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford would've overshadowed the new cast. There were other ways to write the characters. I'm also displeased that J.J. Abrams, with his mystery box that only offers speculation, returns as director and writer.
Abrams/Kasdan definitely started this mess with their choice of plot outline for TFA. But I can't say I like Johnson's choices much, either. He commented on feeling like what he did in TLJ sets up for something potentially really interesting in IX, but I wonder if he thought at all about the fact that Abrams setup things too that he just tossed out. Maybe its a clean slate now (sort of?) for IX, but that it took two movies of rehashing OT stuff to do it...what a waste.

Abrams has no choice but to conclude things with IX (assuming this is still being viewed as a trilogy...fair point from thepepgal), and I wouldn't blame him if he now, in turns, tosses/rejects some of what Johnson did. Like I said before, I find myself looking especially forward to IX but more from a potential "trainwreck" position and wondering just what Abrams will do with all this.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Magnus » January 3rd, 2018, 1:56 pm

borgmatrix wrote:
January 3rd, 2018, 1:33 pm
Master Magnus wrote:
January 3rd, 2018, 12:22 pm
In my opinion this was the weakest plot of the SW movies. While Johnson tried to echo The Empire Strikes Back with the Raddus in place of the Falcon, I think it failed completely and felt to me as a boring version of the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica pilot 33 (in which the plot made more sense and that the crew of the BG actually accomplished something). Heck, they should have hired Ronald D. Moore, a competent writer, instead.
We must have been writing our posts above at about the same time, and apparently on the same wavelength. Agreed! :laugh:
*Checks post* :shock: We must have! :D
borgmatrix wrote:
I frankly don't think that TFA and TLJ feels very much connected at all. I also think LFL/Disney made a huge blunder as the Big Three never was reunited again. I also don't think that Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford would've overshadowed the new cast. There were other ways to write the characters. I'm also displeased that J.J. Abrams, with his mystery box that only offers speculation, returns as director and writer.
Abrams/Kasdan definitely started this mess with their choice of plot outline for TFA. But I can't say I like Johnson's choices much, either. He commented on feeling like what he did in TLJ sets up for something potentially really interesting in IX, but I wonder if he thought at all about the fact that Abrams setup things too that he just tossed out. Maybe its a clean slate now (sort of?) for IX, but that it took two movies of rehashing OT stuff to do it...what a waste.

Abrams has no choice but to conclude things with IX (assuming this is still being viewed as a trilogy...fair point from thepepgal), and I wouldn't blame him if he now, in turns, tosses/rejects some of what Johnson did. Like I said before, I find myself looking especially forward to IX but more from a potential "trainwreck" position and wondering just what Abrams will do with all this.
Yes, Pep made a good point there. I've quite frankly never seen Abrams concluding much of anything. He opens up his mystery box whose content can be interpreted any which way, but he never closes it. And I think you're quite right: As I wrote after first having watched the movie, I felt as if Johnson didn't like some of Abrams's ideas in TFA and retconned them. What will happen now that Abrams is back?

Oh, that reminds me of another thing Pep mentioned: Rey's parents. According to Abrams, we saw them in TFA. according to Kylo in TLJ they were nobodies and before Colin Trevorrow left the ship, he promised a "profoundly satisfying" revealing of Rey's parents: The Guardian
Of course, much has happened since (Carrie Fisher is no longer among us), but I wonder how Abrams will deal with the issue.

TLJ is making a lot of money, but nowhere near TFA at the same point after release (as was expected) and I wonder what will happen if Solo bombs at the box office.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Darth Bangkok » January 4th, 2018, 5:05 am

Master Magnus wrote:
January 3rd, 2018, 12:22 pm
thepepgal wrote:
January 3rd, 2018, 10:47 am

One year after the death of Emperor Palpatine, the battle of Jakku took place. The Galactic Empire lost the battle, but some Imperials managed to flee to the Unknown Regions. Following the battle, a treaty was negotiated between the Republic and the Imperial Remnant. According to the treaty, the Empire would control the Core and Inner Rim and their fleets were restricted to those areas. Some other Imperial groups resisted, resulting in a Cold War with the Republic. Some Senators secretly loyal to the values of the Empire within the Republic formed the Centrist fraction that wanted to restore the Empire.

What happened with the various Imperial factions and does the Remnant still exist? I don't know. I've outlined the events of the Aftermath-trilogy and Bloodline above. The Aftermath-trilogy is the worst written EU I've read and I could never finish it. Bloodline is pretty good though. I also don't think one should have to turn to secondary material.


I think the whole First Order, Snoke and the Empire vs. Rebels rehash were huge mistakes... There are other ways to create drama, tension and excitement.


I frankly don't think that TFA and TLJ feels very much connected at all. I also think LFL/Disney made a huge blunder as the Big Three never was reunited again. I also don't think that Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford would've overshadowed the new cast. There were other ways to write the characters. I'm also displeased that J.J. Abrams, with his mystery box that only offers speculation, returns as director and writer.
Agree completely. Also couldn't finish Aftermath even though I was quite interested to see what happened. Bloodline was good, but it also suffered from the "only these few people in this ship could ever think of the idea to resist the Empire/First Order/whoever it is" disease, although not to the extent of TLJ.

I realize its a story about these people and so, yeah, they need to be extraordinary. But just to be reminded every two minutes that all things revolve around them is just too much. If that ship was blown up in TLJ and they all died, it doesn't mean there wouldn't ever be another rebellion. In fact, the people that didn't respond to their distress calls would just take up the lead for the cause.

:cheers:

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » January 4th, 2018, 9:34 am

Master Magnus wrote:
January 3rd, 2018, 1:56 pm
I've quite frankly never seen Abrams concluding much of anything. He opens up his mystery box whose content can be interpreted any which way, but he never closes it. And I think you're quite right: As I wrote after first having watched the movie, I felt as if Johnson didn't like some of Abrams's ideas in TFA and retconned them. What will happen now that Abrams is back?
But keep in mind that many of the examples with Abrams and his mystery box are from TV show launches with him eventually leaving for other new projects and leaving the baton in the hands of others. A movie, and one that he knows is to be a "finale", is a different situation. Abrams seems to realize and view this as a concluding part based on this quote:
“But when the opportunity presented itself to finish a story that we had begun with these new characters, to tell the last chapter of their story, it felt like there was a chance to do it in a way where we could go beyond, and do better than we did in Seven. I learned so much in that movie and I saw that this was a chance to sort of realize something that we hadn’t quite achieved – and part of that was it was simply the beginning of these new characters and their story. The opportunity to sort of take what we had learned, to take the feeling of who these characters are and what they are and give them a final chapter that felt in the spirit of what we begun? It was too delicious of an opportunity to pass up.”
That's from this article. I'm not sure what he's learned from TFA, but I hope its the right things. And he's calling IX a "last chapter," so I see him closing things out rather than leaving them wide open. I don't think there's any reason to believe he's incapable of concluding things, but like I said before, I'm expecting a safe conclusion rather than anything bold or particularly challenging.
Oh, that reminds me of another thing Pep mentioned: Rey's parents. According to Abrams, we saw them in TFA. according to Kylo in TLJ they were nobodies and before Colin Trevorrow left the ship, he promised a "profoundly satisfying" revealing of Rey's parents...

Even Rian Johnson is saying that area is open for exploration:
“Anything’s still open, and I’m not writing the next film. [J.J. Abrams and Chris Terrio] are doing it,” he said.

Following the reveal, some fans are still questioning Rey’s parentage, especially since the news was delivered via Kylo Ren. Like Johnson said, it’s possible that Kylo is looking for any information, true or not, he can use as “leverage” against Rey. The director previously told Collider that Kylo was sincere in his remarks, but he elaborated to HuffPost that the truth might depend on how you look at things.

“With all of these movies, Obi-Wan’s whole speech about a certain point of view always applies, so I think that you have to always think about the context of how information is given. But for me, dramatically, that’s why that reveal at that moment made sense,” Johnson said.
And that's from this article.

So with Johnson backing off a bit on this topic, I'm definitely expecting Abrams and company will be revealing a different truth regarding her parents.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by bango31 » January 4th, 2018, 11:11 am

I couldn't agree more with the posts about the poor quality of the new books. I hated the Aftermath books. I thought Tarkin was quite good. Currently reading Phasma and I'm struggling to keep going. I don't know what it is with the present-tense, simplistic style but I do not like it.

I also agree that we shouldn't have to turn to secondary sources to flesh out the universe. The books, comics, and games should be supplementary at best. We shouldn't have to suffer through one bad trilogy of books after another to understand what the hell happened over the last 30 years.
I want to be Grand Admiral Thrawn when I grow up.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » January 4th, 2018, 2:52 pm

bango31 wrote:
January 4th, 2018, 11:11 am
I couldn't agree more with the posts about the poor quality of the new books. I hated the Aftermath books. I thought Tarkin was quite good. Currently reading Phasma and I'm struggling to keep going. I don't know what it is with the present-tense, simplistic style but I do not like it.

I also agree that we shouldn't have to turn to secondary sources to flesh out the universe. The books, comics, and games should be supplementary at best. We shouldn't have to suffer through one bad trilogy of books after another to understand what the hell happened over the last 30 years.
I recently bought the kindle edition of Zahn's Thrawn book, which I'll start when I've got some time.

It's disappointing that they didn't just choose certain elements of the old EU to use for the backstory before TFA instead of completely wiping it clean. Since they weren't going to do the work of creating adequate backstory to setup where things were in TFA, that would have helped.

I don't mind books fleshing things out more, but when the movies are offering nothing meaningful, I agree, I don't want to be dependent on other sources as a substitute for storytelling. And, from what you're saying, poorly written secondary sources.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by Master Magnus » January 4th, 2018, 2:56 pm

borgmatrix wrote:
January 4th, 2018, 9:34 am
Master Magnus wrote:
January 3rd, 2018, 1:56 pm
I've quite frankly never seen Abrams concluding much of anything. He opens up his mystery box whose content can be interpreted any which way, but he never closes it. And I think you're quite right: As I wrote after first having watched the movie, I felt as if Johnson didn't like some of Abrams's ideas in TFA and retconned them. What will happen now that Abrams is back?
But keep in mind that many of the examples with Abrams and his mystery box are from TV show launches with him eventually leaving for other new projects and leaving the baton in the hands of others. A movie, and one that he knows is to be a "finale", is a different situation. Abrams seems to realize and view this as a concluding part based on this quote:
“But when the opportunity presented itself to finish a story that we had begun with these new characters, to tell the last chapter of their story, it felt like there was a chance to do it in a way where we could go beyond, and do better than we did in Seven. I learned so much in that movie and I saw that this was a chance to sort of realize something that we hadn’t quite achieved – and part of that was it was simply the beginning of these new characters and their story. The opportunity to sort of take what we had learned, to take the feeling of who these characters are and what they are and give them a final chapter that felt in the spirit of what we begun? It was too delicious of an opportunity to pass up.”
That's from this article. I'm not sure what he's learned from TFA, but I hope its the right things. And he's calling IX a "last chapter," so I see him closing things out rather than leaving them wide open. I don't think there's any reason to believe he's incapable of concluding things, but like I said before, I'm expecting a safe conclusion rather than anything bold or particularly challenging.
Well, you're quite right in that Abrams is using his mystery box to set things up. However, he's not good at wrapping things up and things are still unclear and can open for any kind of interpretation. He has also used Star Wars as an example (well, it's ten years ago but...): YouTube
Oh, that reminds me of another thing Pep mentioned: Rey's parents. According to Abrams, we saw them in TFA. according to Kylo in TLJ they were nobodies and before Colin Trevorrow left the ship, he promised a "profoundly satisfying" revealing of Rey's parents...

Even Rian Johnson is saying that area is open for exploration:
“Anything’s still open, and I’m not writing the next film. [J.J. Abrams and Chris Terrio] are doing it,” he said.

Following the reveal, some fans are still questioning Rey’s parentage, especially since the news was delivered via Kylo Ren. Like Johnson said, it’s possible that Kylo is looking for any information, true or not, he can use as “leverage” against Rey. The director previously told Collider that Kylo was sincere in his remarks, but he elaborated to HuffPost that the truth might depend on how you look at things.

“With all of these movies, Obi-Wan’s whole speech about a certain point of view always applies, so I think that you have to always think about the context of how information is given. But for me, dramatically, that’s why that reveal at that moment made sense,” Johnson said.
borgmatrix wrote:And that's from this article.

So with Johnson backing off a bit on this topic, I'm definitely expecting Abrams and company will be revealing a different truth regarding her parents.
Johnson has also said, in an interview with Collider, that Kylo Ren wasn't lying:
So, can I just make the statement, that’s who her parents are? They came from nothing, they’re buried in the desert, is that for sure?

RIAN JOHNSON: That’s what Kylo sees and that’s what he tells her and I think he’s not lying in that moment. That’s what he saw and she seems to believe it when she hears it. I don’t want to … I’m not writing the next film, we’ll see how they handle it going forward, and as we all know in these movies, there’s always a certain point of view that’s involved. But, for me, I’ll tell you that was the … I can understand why that answer doesn’t feel good. It’s not supposed to feel good. It’s supposed to be the hardest thing she could possibly hear in that moment.
Collider

So, here we have a conflict between Rey's vision/memory of her parents apparently blasting off from Jakku, with Kylo's true statement (according to Johnson) that her parents were nobodies who were buried in a unmarked grave on Jakku. Did Johnson not like the direction Abrams/Kasdan was taking? It wasn't the only aspect from TFA that was apparently changed by Johnson. And now we're back to Abrams again... It has the potential of becoming a mess (but they could've returned to Jakku for all we know).

Somehow, Lucas managed to wrap things up (although the decision made for ROTJ to make Luke and Leia siblings perhaps wasn't the best, but I can see why it was done), but here there's no sense of direction.
bango31 wrote:I couldn't agree more with the posts about the poor quality of the new books. I hated the Aftermath books. I thought Tarkin was quite good. Currently reading Phasma and I'm struggling to keep going. I don't know what it is with the present-tense, simplistic style but I do not like it.

I also agree that we shouldn't have to turn to secondary sources to flesh out the universe. The books, comics, and games should be supplementary at best. We shouldn't have to suffer through one bad trilogy of books after another to understand what the hell happened over the last 30 years.
Yes, I don't think the prose worked at all. I've read quite a few novels written in present tense, but the execution in the Aftermath book was horrible. There were also the references to Earthly life that took me out of the story.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS ALLOWED)

Post by borgmatrix » January 4th, 2018, 3:27 pm

Master Magnus wrote:
January 4th, 2018, 2:56 pm
Johnson has also said, in an interview with Collider, that Kylo Ren wasn't lying:
So, here we have a conflict between Rey's vision/memory of her parents apparently blasting off from Jakku, with Kylo's true statement (according to Johnson) that her parents were nobodies who were buried in a unmarked grave on Jakku. Did Johnson not like the direction Abrams/Kasdan was taking? It wasn't the only aspect from TFA that was apparently changed by Johnson. And now we're back to Abrams again... It has the potential of becoming a mess (but they could've returned to Jakku for all we know).
Rian did say that Kylo wasn't lying, but that was before his more recent statements about anything being possible. He's definitely backpedaling and I feel like that might be a hint that Abrams pitch for IX involved Rey's parents or that he otherwise senses there might be a desire to undo his own undoing of Abrams setup.

So, yeah, I definitely think Rian was looking to go in some different directions and like we've speculated, I think Abrams is going to counter-reverse some things.

EDIT: Someone on another forum commented that it wasn't actually Kylo who spoke on her parents, it was Rey. If I'm remembering right, Kylo was prodding her to go ahead and say it, and she finally said something about them being nobodies. I'm not sure how that affects things and to what degree that still opens up space for a new revelation on her parents. The next time I see the movie, which probably won't be anytime soon, I'll have to pay more attention during that part. Is the implication that she remembers exactly who her parents are and always has? Is she just going off of Kylo's suggestion/hints that they're nobodies?
Somehow, Lucas managed to wrap things up (although the decision made for ROTJ to make Luke and Leia siblings perhaps wasn't the best, but I can see why it was done), but here there's no sense of direction.
Lucas was one man working off of his own work. Whereas here we have a sequential handing off of a baton from one director to another and back to the first. Each basically working on their own with the freedom to do whatever they want. No, its not cohesive, which I think will continue with IX. On the other hand, Rian Johnson's separate trilogy should flow very well as he'll be the driving creative force and no one else.

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